tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7799466056750785352.post8247030072278902138..comments2024-03-15T00:55:04.262-07:00Comments on Budo Blog: Self defense is multi facetedKaseyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16392248937462950113noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7799466056750785352.post-78652907156026935042011-10-30T18:56:24.024-07:002011-10-30T18:56:24.024-07:00Haven't had time to post but have been followi...Haven't had time to post but have been following the discussion a bit. Lots of interesting stuff here. <br /><br />First, at least we are getting closer to a discussion of what's relevant rather then just sweeping discussion away by saying'not self defense'.<br /><br />Here's the thing- yes there is some level of risk in apprehending criminals.The question then needs to be asked is there a benefit and do the risks outweigh the benefits. And I really don't see any of that discussion occurring.<br /><br />I also find it telling that in the 'car accident' hypothetical Kasey leaps to arresting someone as being more comparable to *surgery* then first aid. Really,surgery?<br /><br />And of course both these are the same category of ing- that of rendering medical assistance. It's just that sometimes nothing more then a little common sense and a willingness to help are needed and sometimes you need the absolute best training and state of the art equipment and of course the vast majority of the time you are dealing with somewhere in the middle.<br /><br />We all like to think that what we do is special but I have to say that the 'surgery' analogy comes across a bit like,"Lo, mere mortal, thou shalt never comprehend the specialness of what *I* do". When really, it's not THAT big of deal. And then there is the question of what is the 'proffesional' response? Let's face it, cops aren't out there solving a high percentage of property crime-where I live I doubt I would even talk to someone dire fly,they'd make a report for insurance and compile it into the statistics and that would be that. So,umm, we're supposed to stay out of the way for that? (although in fairness to cops everywhere the police here are, if not particularly lacking in competence, certainly the least motivated I've ever seen, most places aren't *so* bad)Travishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15353783271100674218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7799466056750785352.post-32005468043096673672011-10-28T06:36:18.610-07:002011-10-28T06:36:18.610-07:00"Hmmmm, I think I can best answer this with t..."Hmmmm, I think I can best answer this with the use of a story. Let’s say for example you are walking down the street. 5 men in body armor and automatic weapons burst through the doors of a bank and start shoot randomly shooting. Would it make sense if the law required you to intervene with a duty to act? Or would the public be better served running to safety and providing professional Law Enforcement with quality real time intelligence?" - Kacey<br /><br />Randomly Shooting or already engaging cops on scene; which would be more likely. If their engaging cops, secure weapon (as to not become a casualty of freindly fire) and direct people to safety. There are already people calling why tie up the lines anymore.<br /><br />If they are randomly shooting then we have a Mumbai situation and I seek cover and engage as to try to give cover for other to escape. Again no calling as others will be doing that as thats what you have them trained to do. I will not go down with out a fight. <br /><br />No Virginia Tech or Oslo for me.<br /><br />After saying all that, what will probable happen is I will piss myself and crawl onto a little ball.<br /><br />;-)<br />JoshJosh Kruschkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288700371539530398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7799466056750785352.post-49220419846128582722011-10-26T21:28:06.959-07:002011-10-26T21:28:06.959-07:00"No – Do everything you can to protect yourse..."No – Do everything you can to protect yourself. You have to decide if you want to use force to protect property. Self defense law doesn’t cover force used to protect property in most states." - Kacey<br /><br />That's why I live in Texas.Josh Kruschkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288700371539530398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7799466056750785352.post-91756080932321046002011-10-26T20:59:08.891-07:002011-10-26T20:59:08.891-07:00Correction -
"Let us not play second guess t...Correction -<br /><br />"Let us not play second guess the man on the ground, and also your fellow officers didn't have a problem with it."Josh Kruschkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288700371539530398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7799466056750785352.post-1670149759116263582011-10-26T20:46:25.873-07:002011-10-26T20:46:25.873-07:00Kacey -
This is a what if.
In stituation above,...Kacey -<br /><br />This is a what if. <br /><br />In stituation above, if the guy had let him run away, and the armed robber, thats already committed a felony, panics in his rush to excape carjacks and kills the driver of the first car he comes across, would we still be questiong his motives and judgement? You know there would be those going why didn't he stop hom when he had a chance. <br /><br />The vigilante comment kind of pissed me off.<br /><br />Let us not play second guess the man on the ground, and also your fellow officers did have a problem with it. <br /><br />Sometimes I get the feeling the cops want us unarmed and helpless... You say I have the right to defend myself, but my first responce should be to run away and call the cops.... The "professionals" that you complaind don't do enough traing on their own. Having a gun and a badge does make you a cop ether, and having special police training doesn't guaranty perfect out comes. <br /><br />You seem to be under the impression that those who go through all the hassle to get a CHL do it just wander around looking for badguys to shoot. That they are un able or unwilling to take the time to become profecient in the use of their chosen tool. To learn the law and to put in the time to learn how to use it safely. <br /><br />Hmmm..... rant over.<br />Take care and be safe out there.<br />:-)<br />JoshJosh Kruschkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288700371539530398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7799466056750785352.post-53783604334621319542011-10-26T05:43:59.385-07:002011-10-26T05:43:59.385-07:00This is Kasey's response (still having trouble...This is Kasey's response (still having trouble posting)<br /><br />Josh K<br />So, Lisa (Kacey ?), I should let those around me steal my life and time. <br /><br />No – Do everything you can to protect yourself. You have to decide if you want to use force to protect property. Self defense law doesn’t cover force used to protect property in most states.<br /><br />If I save up and buy something it has my blood and sweat in it, that I will never get back and will have to spend more of to replace, if i give it away at the girdt sign of violence. <br /><br />Yes, you will have to spend more money to replace. But things can be replaced. Your life can’t be replaced. Anytime you engage in violence, there is the potential for things to escalate to the lethal force level. You have to choose if what ever is being taken form you is worth your life, or in this case the life of the robber<br /><br />So, is SD just doing what ever you can not to use violence?<br />No, self defense is about ending violent confrontations as safely and quickly as possible. Doing what you can to avoid violence, however is an extremely effective strategy that sadly is rarely taught.<br /><br /><br />Question why is it only the police have a duty to act? <br /><br />Hmmmm, I think I can best answer this with the use of a story. Let’s say for example you are walking down the street. 5 men in body armor and automatic weapons burst through the doors of a bank and start shoot randomly shooting. Would it make sense if the law required you to intervene with a duty to act? Or would the public be better served running to safety and providing professional Law Enforcement with quality real time intelligence?<br /><br />Having a concealed carry permit gives you permission to carry an effective SELF DEFENSE tool with you. It doesn’t make you a cop, Batman, or Jack Bauer anymore than having a garden hose makes you a fire fighter.<br /><br />Don’t get me wrong, do what ever you have to do to get home safely to your loved ones. Don’t let others be harmed, do what is just - fear nothing. <br /><br />Just understand that if you are no longer protecting yourself or others and you cause / force a confrontation to effect a citizens arrest, you not only risk losing the protection self defense laws (your actions are now assault) but you risk your life and the life of others for what….a purse?<br /><br />You have to do what you feel is right. Just ask yourself is it worth it?<br /><br />I’d imagine that if anyone reading this saw someone hit by a car would do everything they could to help them. They would call 911 and provide any 1st aid they could. No one would try to do field surgery there in the street because the felt it was the right thing to do and more people need to help each other. They would leave surgery to a professional. Having a permit to carry a scalpel doesn’t make you a surgeon. Having a permit to carry a gun doesn’t make you a professional law enforcement officer.Lise Steenersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05040510534717038918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7799466056750785352.post-8060687110827633732011-10-25T19:38:15.267-07:002011-10-25T19:38:15.267-07:00Lise sorry for the 'a'.Lise sorry for the 'a'.Josh Kruschkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288700371539530398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7799466056750785352.post-61213710606143074622011-10-25T17:44:50.283-07:002011-10-25T17:44:50.283-07:00Question why is it only the police have a duty to ...Question why is it only the police have a duty to act? <br /><br />..........?<br /><br />I'm reading Paradigms looks interesting.Josh Kruschkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288700371539530398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7799466056750785352.post-76324311241452569102011-10-25T17:33:58.751-07:002011-10-25T17:33:58.751-07:00So, Lisa (Kacey ?), I should let those around me s...So, Lisa (Kacey ?), I should let those around me steal my life and time. If I save up and buy something it has my blood and sweat in it, that I will never get back and will have to spend more of to replace, if i give it away at the girdt sign of violence. So, is SD just doing what ever you can not to use violence?<br /><br />Just a thought,<br />JoshJosh Kruschkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288700371539530398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7799466056750785352.post-79353948121846866882011-10-25T15:12:19.890-07:002011-10-25T15:12:19.890-07:00I totally agree with you that people should help e...I totally agree with you that people should help each other more and look the other way less....if someone's life is in danger.<br /> But to fight over material possession is dumb and dangerous.... and nothing more than a monkey dance over who is right and who is wrong.Lise Steenersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05040510534717038918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7799466056750785352.post-27362584442821182912011-10-25T14:22:09.916-07:002011-10-25T14:22:09.916-07:00"My advice..."
Reasonable people can di..."My advice..."<br /><br />Reasonable people can disagree; I happen to think the world would be a better place if people were more willing to help others, even at risk to themselves, rather then less. <br /><br />More importantly in this context though is that if we are going to have this discussion we need to at least acknowledge that is legally permissible rather then write it off as, 'hey, look, not self- defense' (which is technically true but overlooks these other, highly relevant concerns).Travishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15353783271100674218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7799466056750785352.post-89508901376213328692011-10-25T11:47:59.151-07:002011-10-25T11:47:59.151-07:00There is a glitch that keeps Kasey from posting r...There is a glitch that keeps Kasey from posting response so he asked me to cut and paste his response. <br /><br />KASEY- <br />"629.37 WHEN A PRIVATE PERSON MAY MAKE AN ARREST.<br />A private person may arrest another:<br />(1) for a public offense committed or attempted in the arresting person's presence;<br />(2) when the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in the arresting person's<br />presence; or<br />(3) when a felony has in fact been committed, and the arresting person has reasonable cause<br />for believing the person arrested to have committed it.<br /><br />-------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />629.39 REQUIRING PRIVATE PERSON MAKING ARREST TO DELIVER ARRESTEE<br />TO JUDGE OR PEACE OFFICER.<br />A private person who arrests another for a public offense shall take the arrested person before<br />a judge or to a peace officer without unnecessary delay. If a person arrested escapes, the person<br />from whose custody the person has escaped may immediately pursue and retake the escapee, at<br />any time and in any place in the state. For that purpose, the pursuer may break open any door<br />or window of a dwelling house if the pursuer informs the escapee of the intent to arrest the<br />escapee and the pursuer is refused admittance.<br /><br />Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should. Is the citizen catching the robber more important than the citizen’s or even the robber’s life?<br /><br />My advice is, do what needs to be done to protect yourself and others from harm. Once the immediate threat has passed be an excellent witness and let the Police do their thing "Lise Steenersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05040510534717038918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7799466056750785352.post-39609092804282364752011-10-25T09:28:39.025-07:002011-10-25T09:28:39.025-07:00Good discussion and I'm not saying anything yo...Good discussion and I'm not saying anything you present is wrong but there are a couple of other things that need to go into the analysis. "Citizens arrest" is a valid concept, well supported in common law and statutory law (though the specifics differ jurisdiction to jurisdiction). Also, while almost never discussed as such, "Defense of others" is also a valid legal principle. Sure there are some practical concerns to deal with and there are stricter legal standards then for "self-defense" (most notably under "defense of others" there has to be an actual threat not just a reasonable belief) but these are both valid and relevant here. By discussing the comments only under an analysis of "self-defense" law you're leaving out a big piece of the law as it applies here.Travishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15353783271100674218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7799466056750785352.post-50294335649004739212011-10-25T08:57:18.691-07:002011-10-25T08:57:18.691-07:00Awesome comments!! More people need to hear/ read...Awesome comments!! More people need to hear/ read and take to heart. <br />Too many vigilante wannabeesLise Steenersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05040510534717038918noreply@blogger.com